X Touch and Pro Tools

  1. #11 by Michael Lapke on 02-03-2016
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    Hi Steve,

    I can tell you the only reason we haven't released any "how to" videos featuring Pro Tools working with X-TOUCH is because our video department hasn't had access to Pro Tools software (in addition to a number of other DAWS) to create this content. As Phil mentions in our live stream broadcast we are continually working on creating this content for X-TOUCH and will be releasing it to the public as soon as we can. We appreciate your patience!

    Michael Lapke
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  2. #12 by Jerome Pierrot on 02-04-2016
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    Hi Steve
    - Steve Ej wrote
    My xtouch is basically reduced to faders, sends/pans and transport. Would be nice if plugin/flip control was functional.
    Can you confirm you can at least use Sends (and how many A to E only or also F to H) and does the flip mode works with sends ?

    This is the minimal feature I expect from a motorized-fader control surface like the X-Touch (controlling track levels and pans, of course, but also controlling Sends using the main faders). The BCF2000 was able to do this. Controlling plug-ins wasn't possible due to HUI protocol (which needs LCD display). Now that the X-Touch has both touch sensitive and displays, it would be disappointed not to support HUI features (even if HUI is limited).

    I am still hesitate between an X touch and a second-hand product from another company (that works well with PT but not sure with other DAWs). The X-Touch has the advantage to support both HUI and MCU protocol. Pro Tools is my main DAW but I would also like to use it with Harrison Mixbus (even if it doesn't fully support surface control yet), Totalmix FX and Logic (rarely).

    Thanks.
  3. #13 by Steve Ej on 02-05-2016
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    - Jerome Pierrot wrote View Post
    Hi Steve
    Can you confirm you can at least use Sends (and how many A to E only or also F to H) and does the flip mode works with sends ?

    This is the minimal feature I expect from a motorized-fader control surface like the X-Touch (controlling track levels and pans, of course, but also controlling Sends using the main faders). The BCF2000 was able to do this. Controlling plug-ins wasn't possible due to HUI protocol (which needs LCD display). Now that the X-Touch has both touch sensitive and displays, it would be disappointed not to support HUI features (even if HUI is limited).

    I am still hesitate between an X touch and a second-hand product from another company (that works well with PT but not sure with other DAWs). The X-Touch has the advantage to support both HUI and MCU protocol. Pro Tools is my main DAW but I would also like to use it with Harrison Mixbus (even if it doesn't fully support surface control yet), Totalmix FX and Logic (rarely).

    Thanks.
    Seems only sends A,B,C can be assigned to the rotary knobs, and flip does not work at all unfortunately, so sends cant be assigned to faders. Id agree, being able to flip sends to faders is pretty crucial. Also meter LED's seem to be broken which is a bit of a drag.

    As far as HUI goes, I've only really worked on digidesign/avid consoles so not much experience with HUI... Are you saying with HUI, Plugins dont work, and therefore will never work via HUI into PT? Is plugin parameter control only possible through MC?

    Also thanks Mike, Its a really great controller, It works well with very short corporate style videos, but unfortunately falls very short when it comes to longer narrative type projects where more detail is needed within the mix (working in film/tv production), it would be a shame to see it not developed to its full potential under PT.

    Last edited by Steve Ej; 02-05-2016 at 09:48 AM.
  4. #14 by Jerome Pierrot on 02-05-2016
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    Seems only sends A,B,C can be assigned to the rotary knobs, and flip does not work at all unfortunately, so sends cant be assigned to faders. Id agree, being able to flip sends to faders is pretty crucial. Also meter LED's seem to be broken which is a bit of a drag.
    Oh. Ok. No flip mode for sends is a no go for me...

    As far as HUI goes, I've only really worked on digidesign/avid consoles so not much experience with HUI... Are you saying with HUI, Plugins dont work, and therefore will never work via HUI into PT? Is plugin parameter control only possible through MC?
    No, I was talking about the old BCF2000 (flip mode used to work with it but not the plug-in control). HUI protocol CAN control plug-in but uses some dialog message to select an insert (plug-in), navigate into pages of parameters (banks of 8 paramaters), etc....

    (some) Limitations of HUI :
    - track name display is limited to 4 characters (with MCU it is 6 or 7 characters)
    - HUI has been developed when Pro Tools version was PT4, at this moment there were only 5 inserts and 5 sends, so I'm pretty sure you cannot access to sends and inserts F-H. But if X-Touch is limited to only 3 sends, it's not enough. And the In/Out button is useless to my opinion (I don't remind the feature behind those ones, but it's old).
    - With older Digi control surfaces (incl. the C8), there is a plug-in mapping feature, but HUI protocol doesn't provide plug-in mapping (with Eucon, I don't know yet). Instead, plug-ins parameters are displayed with pages of 8 parameters. But the order of the parameter cannot be modified. So display depends on how the plug-in developer used to sort its parameters (most 3rd party developers don't take care of this kind of details) and you can have a lot of pages for 1 plug-in.

    Also, the original HUI used to have 2 LCD displays (1 for indiviual track names, another one for plug-in parameters and user dialog screen) so I don't know how Behringer dealt (or will deal) with the dialog system (through the indivual track name display I suppose).

    (I don't if I am clear enough ?).

    Last edited by Jerome Pierrot; 02-06-2016 at 01:38 AM. Reason: words in bold (mmm, font tags aren't working)
  5. #15 by Jerome Pierrot on 03-05-2016
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    Hi,

    I finally decided to purchase an X-Touch unit. To be honest, Behringer can thank Harrison's work and video which convinced me to put a bet on this unit (HUI and MCU compatibilty is the key criteria that make me choose).

    Here are my 1st impression (I will only talk about HUI mode here, MCU mode is Off topic). I tested with Mac OSX.8.5 and OSX.9.5 (I will test OSX.11 later), Pro Tools 10.3.10 and PT12.4.

    Positive points :
    - very well built (it is a bit taller and far heavier than I thought) except the jog wheel. Case frame is in metal (only the side panels are in plastic).
    - button are soft and quiet.
    - all 3 interface modes are working (MIDI, USB AND Ethernet) for both HUI and MCU protocol and can be use straight away (no driver needed on Mac).
    - HUI's buttons are pretty well implemented and consistent (leds are reflecting the actual status of each button and interaction with Pro Tools is close to perfect)
    - possibility to change automation modes track per track (but also for all tracks, for selected tracks etc)
    - the 4 arrows to edit/zoom implementation is great (I will post more details if you want)
    - lots of good surprises (see my own answer to my "01-13-2016" questions below)
    => including a good interaction with modifiers keys and buttons
    - also few disappointement (see negative points below)

    Neutral :
    - fader are neither very noisy, nor very quite => a motor off option would be useful (but I found a workaround using hide/show tracks in Pro Tools if I need to focus on a single track, or to listen to the full mix without having fader movements).
    - metering is working (but sometimes it disappear, I don't know why), clip leds do NOT work though.

    Negative points (mosty everything we already talk about here) :
    - no flip mode for sends, pan, etc... => very important to me
    - no access to send E and F (Note : AFAIK Send G to K is not possible with HUI protocol) => very important to me
    - no access to inserts (plug-ins) => less important but would be handy
    - the scribble displays only show 4-char names in 1 row (the display is different with MCU mode that is using 2 rows). When selecting sends, it only briefly show send name then get back to track names (it is cool to see track names, but still display Pan, Send A, Send B and/or setting value could be useful too).
    - the scribble colors could be used to reflect per-track automation modes (off, read, write, etc) see this topic
    - lots of keys are unused (F1 to F7 does ????, modifiers+lots keys don't do anything)
    - cheap quality of the jog wheel (and it is not very useful with HUI mode, except for srubbing)
    - not a big fan of the V-Pot (quite cheap compared to the rest of the unit but better than the jog wheel)

    Scott Brewster already reply to most of my initial questions but I wanted to add :
    1/ About plug-ins : confirm it's not working

    2/ "In" and "Out" buttons are simply displaying the input and output routing. While it may be useful, it is far less important than controlling all sends. Maybe Behringer could reallocate Encoder assignment buttons, and use modifier keys to access to in/out routing display.
    (for example :
    - shift+Track => "In"
    - option+Track => "Out"
    - Track => pan left/right
    - all other buttons => Sends A to E
    - shift + all other buttons => Inserts A to E

    3/ Another suggestion for Encoder assignment :
    - button Send+ F1 to F5 to select sends A to E
    - button Plug-ins+F1 to F5 to select insert A to E

    4/ Actually, while alt+touch does nothing (it could be cool to reset a fader with it), CTRL + touch correctly ungroup the fader (= CTRL+clic on a fader), and we can also ungroup ctrl+mutes, ctrl+solos, etc..) =>

    5/ Actually, interaction with mac keyboard modifiers works very well. We can either use one (X-touch mods) or the other (Mac keyboard mods) without any differences.
    For PC users, if you're not sure what the modifier are standing for, simply hold one of the shift/ctrl/alt/start key and the corresponding modifier key should lit up on the X-Touch. =>

    6/ already answered => works

    7/ F8 does exactly the same as ESC key : Cancel for sure, but also cycles through the Edit tool modes =>

    It is funny we all complain about the lack of manual from Behringer while I had to make a deep search to find how HUI protocol works with Pro Tools : the most recent documentations I could get comes from PT6.1 and don't talk about the MCU unit at all (only HUI and Motor Mix). I also found a Mackie Control for Pro Tools User's guide ( (with Mac OS 9 screenshots )which can be useful for the zoom/edit/transports buttons. But, finally, we (users) still need/have to experiment to find out what button and modifiers are actually doing.
  6. #16 by Scott Brewster on 06-14-2016
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    Does 1.15 solve anything re; PT integration?

    I recently downloaded Avid's Pro Tools Control app for my iPad mini.

    That, in conjunction with the X-Touch control surface, gives me fine-grain access to proper, FAST and ACCURATE metering (via Control app), pan and plugin control (again, via Control app), and lightweight control of the ProTools if I want to have a surface with me in the booth - showing dead-on realtime accurate metering, and transport controls. All via the Avid EuCon protocol.

    Best of all, for the Pro Tools Control app, the price -- Free from Avid. You don't even have to own an Artist Mix, which used to be a prior requirement for downloading EuCon, to have a compatible piece of hardware.

    The X-Touch v1.14 firmware - metering is intermittent if at all (confirmed by baffled Behringer techs even on PT12), no plugin control even though there are dedicated pan and control knobs, no EQ control support (um, wow?? even HUI running on PT6 had that capability).

    Having physical controls is a definite tactile need for me here. I can work with a touch screen but actual twisting of knobs and pressing buttons and pushing faders and feeling them push back, makes for a more rewarding experience.

    Will Behringer or one of my fellow clever coders on this site EVER be able to have a translator app between the ridiculously powerful EuControl protocol (which Pro Tools Control natively connects to for free) and the potentially ridiculously powerful X-Touch running in ProTools mode?

    EuCon is an Avid app that goes between ProTools and whatever connected surfaces, why can't you have a BehrCon or something? (You saw it here first folks, I have dibs on the name, hehe).

    I have seen YouTube videos showing a Mackie HUI - which is now long since discontinued - controlling EQ settings and basic plugin parameters FROM the HUI control surface screen, with accurate and fast metering. It worked back then, why is it not working via Behringer's implementation now?

    Also, there is a thread on here suggesting how you can use a program to capture MIDI messages from the controller. Realistically, is it difficult to send those captured messages back to ProTools via the EuCon protocol?

    I am running ProTools 10 HD, MANY generations after the versions of ProTools that used to be compatible with HUI. Was something taken out of the HUI protocol? Or is it a coding issue?

    Now that I've seen what EuCon and Avid's free Pro Tools Control app can do, I'm definitely considering getting a larger-screen iPad and working around many of my in-the-box mixing and control surface issues there.

    Yes, plugins have gotten more complicated as time goes on. But simple EQ or level / send changes should be easy to accommodate?

    It's a shame, really. The Behringer X-Touch has lots of promise, and works GREAT for other DAW's. For Behringer to say "it's not our fault, it's not in the HUI protocol" and to leave it at that, not asking Avid how they can emulate or translate EuCon traffic, is a bit of a drag.

    Behringer has low-level access to its X-Touch hardware via the different modes it can be put in, the surface itself has been shown to work seamlessly and correctly with other DAW's using the MCU protocol, and Avid wouldn't be losing any money since they already GIVE AWAY a EuCon compatible control surface app for free.

    In theory, nevermind the HUI protocol for the moment. MCU commands could be sent to the X-Touch in response to EuCon requests. Works for other DAW's, does it not?

    Has Behringer's 1.15 firmware update solved the PT disappearing meters issue? Or addressed ANY of the inability for us ProTools users to fully appreciate the control surface's power? I'm still on 1.14 but am reticent to upgrade since it's my understanding you can't downgrade to 1.14 afterwards. Correct me please if I'm wrong.

    Your thoughts?

    Last edited by Scott Brewster; 06-14-2016 at 09:59 PM. Reason: wording and clarity
  7. #17 by Scott Brewster on 07-25-2016
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    No one? Okay .. that's a bit disconcerting ..
  8. #18 by Lionel Renquet on 3 Weeks Ago
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    Hello,

    I just want to know if any update will be create to have a better pro tools integration ?

    I think some other HUI controller have better intergration like plugins control etc. It would be great is the X-touch can do the same in the future !

    Thanks
  9. #19 by Andre Cunha on 6 Days Ago
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    X Touch and Pro Tools

    Considering the long time without answers, seems that Behringer doesn't care a bit if Xtouch is not working properly with PT.....

    Some will say it's HUI limitations, but why Faderport 8 works properly and Xtouch does not?

    In my opnion Xtouch is much more gorgeous than Faderport 8 but..... if don't work, what's the purpose to buy if you are a PT user?

    Last edited by Andre Cunha; 6 Days Ago at 08:48 AM.
  10. #20 by Michael Lapke on 5 Days Ago
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    - Andre Cunha wrote View Post
    Considering the long time without answers, seems that Behringer doesn't care a bit if Xtouch is not working properly with PT.....

    Some will say it's HUI limitations, but why Faderport 8 works properly and Xtouch does not?
    X-TOUCH functionality in Pro Tools relies completely on the HUI control protocol and how Pro Tools decides to incorporate that into their DAW software. Just because Pro Tools understands HUI control doesn't guarantee that every little thing / detail in Pro Tools is able to be adjusted via X-TOUCH (or any other 3rd party control device) using the HUI protocol. What specifically do other external HUI controllers "handle properly" (while connected to Pro Tools via HUI control mode) that X-TOUCH does not?

    HUI control protocol hasn't changed much since it was introduced in 1997, so unless the other 3rd party controller products are deviating from the HUI protocol then I'm not sure what else they can provide in relation to Pro Tools that X-TOUCH can't.

    Michael Lapke
    Specialist, Community
    MUSIC Tribe
    BEHRINGER